The Poultry Keeper

sasha.p · Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 472 Location: gwent

i presume most of you own land so i thought i would ask here for a little advise .we have just purchased some land and i know its taking a big chance as it has never had any planning on it before but the council have told me its for agricultural purposes but that may change in 30 years time if we are prepared to wait long enough thing is we want to apply for a barn to be built and then later apply to get it converted many years down the line but we are new top all this and really don't know where to start we know its going to be very difficult but that's just a chance we will have to take also i would like to start a boarding cattery there too has anyone else applied to have anything built on agricultural land before and whats the best way to go about it i have been told i will need a good reason to get planning for a barn well i have 3 chickens lol if that's any good it is 11 acres of woodland and overgrown land should i get some goats once the fencing is all done would they eat brambles?would they give me a reason to need a barn?please can anyone advise me thanks Smile

milkmaid · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 6973 Location: isle of lewis

goats will eat brambles .
don't know anything about planning ,i know in the smallholder there is an advert for chapter 7 don't know if they might help ,mind you somebody on here might have a idea
suz

poultry poofs · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject:

Hi
If you have a reasonable number of livestock that require shelter and dry storage for winter feed then the council should 'reasonably' allow you to erect a 'temporary' structure for this purpose ie, a large wooden shed or field shelter so long as it does not detract from the area or raise objectons from neighbouring land owners,or from people whose view it may disrupt.
The 'temporary' nature is an important emphasis when dealing with the council.If you plan to build a large solid brick built structure with substantial ground works from the off, then the council may require full planning and building regs application which is expensive and they may refuse outright.that may cause you problems then even trying to erect a smaller 'temporary' building.
They will also be suspicious of any application that allows the construction of a building that has the potential of later being converted to a dwelling.
If you dont plan to do such a thing for many years then it would be better to start the process gradually by erecting a 'temporary' type building.once the land has established a presence of a'temporary' building on it for some time you stand a much better chance later of getting it replaced with a bigger and more substantial structure.
IF you have a large enough number of livestock that require your attention and you dont already live next door to them you should 'reasonably' be allowed permission to erect a dwelling on the site but it will have an 'agricultural' tie to it.ie its presence will only be allowed while the occupants are carrying out agricultural/smallholding type operations.In reality in a few years time say 20-30 the tie will be lifted-there are conveyancing solicitors who specialise in having such ties lifted from agricultural dwellings- especially since there is a preasure on most councils to allow more rural development to address the chronic housing shortage.
If you were to sell the land during the time the dwelling has a tie attached the only people who could buy the place would be people planning to use the same land for the same purposes.Which limits your market.
The other key is that you have sufficient livestock numbers to justify the building you want to put up.3 chickens and a goat would not sway the council but you need to strike a balance between what you want to achieve and what you are capable or competent to look after correctly as there are strict animal welfare rules to adhere to now which apply to everyone who has livestock.Certain animals require permissions or 'passports' from DEFRA or may require you to register the land as a holding so you need to decide what you want to do and think it out and get the right advice from the appropriate bodies.
If you go and speak to the council with a hyperthetical situation they will advise you what is best for you,if they are any good.Not all councils have the same willingness to help though.
DEFRA are quite good if you speak to their local officers, though I wouldnt recommend e-mailing your questions to their helplines as they either ignore your queries or send a totally inappropriate response! :?Sometimes the NFU are useful for advice .There are smallholding organisations who may be able to advise also.
Good luck whatever you do

rich

Spana · Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 2072 Location: North Cornwall

Now, you must not let what I say put you off. If you decide to go for any sort of planning you must stick it out, through to the bitter end if you think you have a good reason for getting it.
We fought the planners for 10 years at a cost of over one hundred thousand pounds but won in the end. It made us both ill at times and kept us awake at night. We learned a lot and would do it again.

poultry poofs · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject:

The other angle you could try if you have 11 acres of woodland is that you speak to a local woodman/tree surgeon and come to some amicable arrangement for him to manage the wood remove dead dying wood etc,his payment will be the dead felled timber he can sell for wood fuel and convince the council that you require a barn type building to store timber, machinery, etc which could also be partly used to keep livestock in. Wink

poultry poofs · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject:

CP · Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

Good luck - sounds like you'll need it! Wink

(owner of medium sized garden only. Crying or Very sad

Wishing for more!)

Spana · Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 2072 Location: North Cornwall

Issy · Joined: 22 Nov 2005 Posts: 371 Location: somerset

We found the local planning officers really helpful when we looked for planning permission for a field shelter on a concrete base and a hay barn. The key seemed to be to speak to them first and find out what they were more amenable to ( ie. in our case wood build and a black onduline roof) It is also important to find out the criteria from the highways agent - we had to go down the day before they were expected and prune the hedge back from the gate to make sure we could see the required amount of meters up the road!!
We have also found out over time that you don't need permission for scalping's or temporary shelters but they must be on skids or rollers and not at any point attached to the ground - you should just be able to attach a tractor etc and pull it away.
We only have 3 acres which is not really enough to fight to build on but we have our eye on the neighboring 5 acres so time will tell!!

Spana · Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 2072 Location: North Cornwall

I'm really not sure about this so on sticky ground, but I vaguely remember some rule that says you are allowed to put up a barn without planning if you have more than 5 acres. I think that's if some the land is rented as well.
Can anyone confirm this.

OH thinks its 7 acres

sasha.p · Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 472 Location: gwent

hi thanks for the excellent advice best i have had yet ,right a few more things this land at the bottom even though the council say there has never been any planning or properties on it there is two separate concrete foundations one of which still has asbestos walls these have obviously been there for a long time and i know its going to be costly to get it cleared away but are these classed as temporary buildings and back when they were done would planning permission of been required?is there any way of doing something using these to my advantage ?also i know the manager of a local animal sanctuary if i asked to borrow all their goats to graze on my grounds once we have done the fencing right around it might be doing them a favor as well as doing me one by getting rid of all the scrub that's there as we don't want to disturb anything with machines as there are door mice and protected species there .what sort of care do goats need obviously they need shelter if they were grazing would they also require feeding as well?i would love to keep the goats there permanently as long as the sanctuary would be willing to foot the vet fees etc we would just be providing them a little extra land to put their animals on even though i know the sanctuary has to be licensed we would not need one to have goats would we?

debcat · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject:

if they have concrete bases they wouldn't be classed as temporary
are there any old farmers around that you could ask what they were used for and how long ago?
the fact that there were once buildings there may work to your advantage

milkmaid · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 6973 Location: isle of lewis

you would have to apply for a holding number from defra and a flock no ,i'd get on to that one as soon as possible as it can take a while to come though and once you have it if any goats come along you'll be able to say , Smile

yes ,goats hate being wet so shelter is a must ,fencing Twisted Evil

,they will need their feet trimmed ,and depending on what you've got ,goat concentrate ,
salt lick ,and a water surply goats are really fussy about their water buckets and water ,there is a really good book by david mackenzie ,called goat husbandry ,but there are loads of good books that will give you a really good idea ,you might be able to get some from the libary ,although personally i found that the goats tend to eat them rather than read them Very Happy

,it's a good idea borrowing some goats before you buy Wink

suz

milkmaid · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 6973 Location: isle of lewis

forgot to say sorry,thought i saw the bloke who is picking up his billy ,that if you have woodland goats will strip the bark off the trees ,as well as graze the brambles although with 11 acres it might take them a while so maybe you could use the goats for a while and swap over when cleared a bit to sheep Confused

suz

sasha.p · Joined: 04 Sep 2005 Posts: 472 Location: gwent

also regarding the woodcutting idea that sounds a good one DH is pretty good with his chainsaw we collect driftwood off the river for our wood burner but i know there are only a few tpo's on some of the main wooded areas the rest are weed trees and scrub area that has appeared due to the land not being managed, i know there is a lot of legislation surrounding trees and all as i done most of it on my national diploma in animal management course .there is a public right of way through our grounds as well "the usk valley walk" so dead or dying trees could be a danger to hikers etc passing through so definitely would say the ground needs to be managed thing is how in gods name do i explain what our intentions are we bought the ground because we want to preserve it and would love to live there and enjoy seeing all the wildlife and before anything is done there i would make sure nothing would be destroyed habitat wise there is already a clearing where we would like to build so no habitat would be disturbed but i know the council are probably going to think what a crock its our dream and i have been trying for three years to get some ground along the area and have approached several property owners to ask if they would consider selling but had no luck then this came on the market and we snapped it up we never thought we would ever own so much land here as it a sought after location and there's not much land around apart from what belongs to the golf course we was looking at properties with half an acre etc .when i mentioned to a neighbor the other day that we had bought it she said you didn't hang around on that one she remarked about the price being fair which made me realize she must of inquired about it as it was not advertised i checked the website and paper and shop window inside and out in the end i asked the woman in the estate agents and she told me they did not have the details in yet but knew how much ground there was and how much was being asked for it so the same day we made an offer and the second offer we made he accepted .we know everything the was to know about it as i always walk my dogs there so the details never mattered to us fingers crossed the bloke selling it does not pull out of the sale but as soon as its all gone through which i will push it to be very quick i want to get started so need all the advice i can get.sorry to ramble on just so excited and nervous laughing6