The Poultry Keeper

Itsybitsy · Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 1359 Location: Leicestershire

Reading some of the recent posts with regard to Avian Influenza, it's a bit worrying (well to me anyway) that so many of you appear to know so little about it. Sorry that sounds very high handed and as if "I know what I am talking about" but a little bit of reading up wouldn't go amis amongst us.

Try this www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/

Found by me quite easily on google by typing in Influenza Epidemics.

It is American, but quite readable and understandable.

You may then when you've read it realise why immunization is not the answer, nor is there a government conspiracy theory in order to make us pay taxes on our chickens or reduce the national flock.

kittoch · Joined: 02 Jul 2005 Posts: 170 Location: glasgow

like everyone in a democracy...you are entiltled to your opinion Wink

just as i am sure , people with more information and expertise at finding relevant links than me, will find some refutting yours, and advocating vaccination, with all its plus points.
glad you trust the govnt/defra etc so implicitly........hope your right!! Shocked

morgan · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 17

It seems to be all about human infection not the birds themselves. I have been trying to make sense of this vaccinate or not argument but I cant find anything about that on this site.The only mention of vaccine I can find is for human protection from AI.
For the less computer able where is it please?

summayah · Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 4289 Location: luton

I can't remember where I read about the vaccination thing. The one that I read seem to say that the vaccination would hide the symtoms, but the birds could still be carriers of the virus. I wonder why the other EU countries are bothering to vaccinate now, if that is the case. There must be more than one type available. But I did read on another link on here that the governement would rather circle and cull than vaccinate.
Sorry I can't help you Morgan other than to suggest you go through all the posts with links in this section. I would work backwards if it were me, as the position is changing all the time.

Itsybitsy · Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 1359 Location: Leicestershire

Well I didn't get as far as looking at the relevant DEFRA bits I just found this first, I had already written a reply to an earlier post regarding this yesterday but didn't post it as I wasn't 100% on facts - although everything that I put was more or less confirmed by reading the American site.

It doesn't say anything much about vaccination - but if you read the nature of the disease - wild birds are the hosts, direct contact is needed, the fact that AI has high and low pathogenic strains and at the moment it's a high one going round, it doesn't infect the host bird and easily changes to a new strain which the old vaccination is no use against, and is 90 - 100% fatal to domestic poultry, at this moment in time human to human transmission is not happening but the WHO is constantly monitering the situation. Type A has the potential to change if it infected an animal already infected with another influenza strain it could happen.
Vaccination just prevents the birds from dying - it doesn't stop them getting it nor passing it on

ramshackle · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 16

Hi guys,

maybe this helps, too. The vaccine the CDC website talks about is the vaccine designed to protect humans, not birds. That particular vaccine is still at the testing stage in the US and not available for use. The vaccine the Netherlands and France are planning to use is a widely and readily available vaccine that protects only birds, and only lowers the risk of infection and shedding of the virus once infected. I've swiped the following from an EU press release (posted today on the following website)
[url]
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/06/92&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en[/url]

All of it forms the implementation of a new EU Directive, adopted in December 2005. Hope it helps clarify some matters...
ramshackle
....

What are the advantages of vaccinating birds against avian influenza?

Vaccination reduces the risk of birds becoming infected with the avian influenza virus, and lowers the chances of the virus being introduced into a vaccinated holding, as a higher amount of the virus is needed before a vaccinated bird will become infected. Vaccination also reduces the amount of the virus shed in the environment by a bird if it does become infected with avian flu, thereby helping to lower the risk of the disease spreading. A properly vaccinated flock is less likely to have an outbreak of avian influenza than a non-vaccinated flock, and if an outbreak of the disease does occur it is slower to spread and easier to contain and eradicate in a vaccinated flock. Moreover, vaccination reduces the mortality levels of infected birds, making it useful for protecting valuable birds such as zoo birds.

What are the disadvantages?

Vaccination does not provide 100% protection against avian influenza, and vaccinated birds may still become infected with the virus, depending on certain conditions e.g. level of exposure to virus. Moreover, it may mask an outbreak of the disease, thereby delaying detection and increasing the risk of it spreading. If the vaccination is not properly applied, and proper surveillance is not carried out, the avian influenza virus may continue to circulate within a vaccinated flock between not fully immune birds, albeit with a lower mortality rate. Strict surveillance and control measures must be carried out on vaccinated poultry under EU legislation, and these, along with the initial work and costs required to administer the vaccine, can make it cumbersome and prohibitively expensive when carried out on a large scale.

What happens if there is an outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza in a vaccinated flock?

If there is outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza in vaccinated poultry, Member States must apply the same eradication and control measures as are carried out when there is an outbreak in unvaccinated poultry. All poultry on the infected holding must be culled, their meat and products must be destroyed, and thorough cleansing and disinfection must be carried out on the holding. A 3 km radius protection zone and 10 km radius surveillance zone must be set up around the site where the disease was detected, and wider risk areas should be marked out around these zones to act as a buffer between the affected and non-affected part of the Member State. Movement restrictions, bio-security measures and intense monitoring of holdings must be implemented in these restricted areas. (see MEMO/06/79).

NannyP · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject:

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I'm not reading about it anywhere but on here. I've decided that the information overload and masses of conjecture and mis information in the media and here on the internet would drive me crazy. I've decided to wait and see what happens, do what I have to do when the time comes. I am absolutely positive that IF it gets here, we will have to cull and all the precautions/vaccinations and disinfectant will not change that. Call me a pragmatist but that's the way I see it.

The only precautions I have taken are to cover the run (which I did several months ago) and this was also to provide a more or less permanently dry space for the girls (and boy) when not free ranging. The last couple of days I have left them in the run and given them more straw to scratch in. I will probably keep them in for a while now and wait to see what is suggested over the next few weeks.

I'm sorry, but I did feel your comment Itsybitsy was rather arrogant and make's some large assumptions about many of us on this forum.

Sadly my chef came to me yesterday and asked, should he take poultry off the menu Shocked

That is what we're ultimately up against, those that will panic and decide that all poultry is bad and will kill them.

summayah · Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 4289 Location: luton

Like you NannyP I've only read on forums about it, and then sad to say I only skim read it. There is so much hype that it's very difficult to see 'the wood for the trees'.
I think if I were in the position that a lot of you are in I would cover my girls and wait and see for the rest. I had always intended covering my girls but didn't get round to it, just so they would be in the dry. They never seemed to have the wit to get out of the rain or the noon-day sun.

poultry poofs · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:05 am Post subject:

Have to fully agree with you NannyP it ill be out of our hands anyway what will be will be.
Having lived through Farming crisis to crisis for the last 40+ years I have litle faith in Governmental 'management' of any disease outbreak.

DEFRA already have made their minds up

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/statements/060222.htm

The intelligent public have already made their minds up too, they are not buying eggs from the local shops and it wont be long before keeping poultry will be anti-social/dangerous behaviour. Rolling Eyes

Whatever happens short term in the long term the disease is going to become endemic in the environment if it isnt already since there have been sporadic outbreaks over decades in various locations in the world.
Which means we are going to have to deal with this threat every year at migratory times not just this year.

Gardening anyone? its safer to the wallet and more rewarding Confused

CP · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject:

Itsybitsy, I don't think any of us profess to be experts on AI. Which is why we post & read as much as possible on the forum.

Rather than suggest we are all ignorant, please just submit any information you have found so that we can all read & learn. I'm sure others on here have already 'Googled' to find out as much as we can about it, but we cannot know it all.

We can only protect our birds to the best of our ability, but in the end DEFRA will have the ultimate decision over us all.

Mel · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Gosport, Hampshire

I have to admit I'm in agreement with Nanny P and the Poultry Poofs, this is a situation that ultimately we're not going to have much control over.

We're are discussing things on here with our poultry mates to help each other through what may be a really harrowing time. Chin up guys XX

poultry poofs · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject:

If anyone doubts the mis-management of governments over disease threats perhaps they should read this article in its entirety

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ryter/jon123.htm

rich

poultry poofs · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject:

Who is right and who is wrong?some interesting views since we are all apparently so ignorant of the facts.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38229

http://www.medadnews.com/News/index.cfm?articleid=316137

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?n=66007-bird-flu-france-netherlands

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/23/nflu23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/02/23/ixportal.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/international/europe/22cnd-flu.html

http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/news.asp?dat=76319

poultry poofs · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject:

There is one key fact in all of this whether vaccination or culling are the approved methods of control.

there is no escaping the fact the virus is and will remain endemic in the wild bird population and therefore a theat to poultry and domestic waterfowl.
This threat is serious and has the capacity to create genuine fear amongst human population.If keeping poultry means putting us and more importantly our close family and neighbours at risk of the disease we should be considering those factors too.
I am very much against interference with anyones lawful right to live the way they choose so long as it does not harm anyone else.
If our poultry are going to cause genuine fear or put our neighbours at risk -even though they may still be at risk from the wild bird population -I know we will be getting rid of our birds I know we would not want the responsibility of our neighbours health being damaged or worse.Its up to us to be responsive to peoples fears and consider them.If we wish to continue to keep poultry it looks like we are going to have move away from close neighbours until something is done to manage the threat more effectively.

thats our feeling anyway.

rich

Mel · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Gosport, Hampshire

Rich, you are so right.

My husband and I have 1 great set of neighbours, they appreciate the eggs they get given and love the fact that in the middle of an estate there are 3 chickens. We have reassured them regularly of what we know (mainly from the forum), and how we're going about things. They are more concerned about the girls welfare and are genuinely worried about the fact that we have nowhere to house them inside and that if/when the inevitable happens the fact that our girls will probably have to go to chicken heaven. Crying or Very sad

However on the other side, we have a neighbour who has never liked the fact that we got the girls, refused our offer of eggs and who we know is probably praying Bird Flu gets here by express delivery.

At the end of the day we are caught between them and the fact that we don't really want to lose our girls anyway, but we have to live in the neighbourhood. Confused