The Poultry Keeper

Dopey · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject:

You can also get air pellets to shoot game, there not the flat nose type you usually get, these are a lot more pointed at the business end, and will do in to bone (the skull) a lot better and make a cleaner kill, myself I would have no qualms about killing it at all, like you say the fox is doing what comes natural, but then so are you by protecting your hens, all is equal in love and war

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

Would putting it in a carry cage in the freezer be really bad either legally or humanely?

I think that's about my last option for today... the car thing would be too exposed - I'd likely have a 'concerned' neighbour call the RSPCA

Sedgewort Bramble · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject:

Freezer.................Certainly inhumane, most probably illegal. Causing unnecesssary suffering to any animal is illegal.

Do you know where its 'earth' is????

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

No - I really don't want to cause it to suffer, I was told be someone that freezing was a good way to euthenase small animals - guess it's different for bigger things...

How do you find a foxes earth?

I can smell foxes on the field round the corner quite often but I've looked around there and not found any signs of an earth.

Dopey · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

I think the co2 is a good idea, and its probably legal because it considered humane, all you need is a garden hose, and just tape it on the exhaust pipe and run it any place you like, but run the car for an extra 5 mins, after its gone to sleep though, and before you go in, open the doors and let everything clear, remember you cant see it taste it or smell it, so be safe and air everything before you go back in to the house

Sedgewort Bramble · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject:

Its earth could be anywhere. They travel great distances, especially vixens at this time of year.

If you've ever heard an animal actually choking to death, I think you'd disregard advise of exhaust fumes. It doesn't just go to sleep....it fights for its life......sorry not for me.

Dopey · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:

Oh yea they choke a bit, and splutter, its not a nice thing to see, but shooting it is maybe best

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

yeah - if only I had a gun here.

tried any and all contacts who might have been able to help, but no luck. I know carbon monoxide alone would not be an inhumane death, I assume theres something else in car exhaust fumes that causes the coughing/spluttering?

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

ok - found this info:

AVMA Guidelines on Carbon Monoxide

Carbon monoxide (CO) combines with hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin. This blocks the uptake of oxygen by red blood cells.

Clinical signs of CO toxicosis, as originally described, are due to its action upon the blood system. In people, initial symptoms are headache sometimes combined with nausea, followed by depression progressing to unconsciousness. Because CO stimulates motor centers in the brain, unconsciousness may be accompanied by convulsions and muscular spasms.

Carbon monoxide is a cumulative poison. Distinct signs of CO toxicosis are not induced until the concentration is 0.05% in air, and acute signs do not occur until the concentration is approximately 0.2%. In human beings, exposure to 0.32% and 0.45% of CO for one hour will induce unconsciousness and death.

When CO is produced by combustion, oxides of nitrogen and hydrocarbons, oxygenates of hydrocarbons, and heat must be controlled to prevent discomfort to the animal. This may be done by passing exhaust gases through a water chamber and a metal gauze filter with a cloth screen. The water chamber cools the gas, removes some carbon particles, and entraps the oxides of nitrogen, hydrocarbons, and oxygenates of hydrocarbons. The cloth filter removes carbon particles, allowing relatively clean, nonirritating CO gas to enter the chamber.

...

Advantages-
Carbon monoxide induces rapid and painless death;
hypoxemia induced by CO is insidious so that the animal is completely unaware of it;
unconsciousness occurs without pain or discernible discomfort, when properly administered.

Disadvantages-
Safeguards must be taken to prevent exposure of personnel;
exhaust gases must be filtered and cooled to prevent discomfort to animals.

So if I were to use car exhaust fumes - passing them through a water chamber and filter would be neccessary.

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

more info :

http://sres-associated.anu.edu.au/myna/humane_files/Car%20exhaust%20fumes.pdf

“The introduction of catalytic converters beginning with 1975 new-car models
dropped CO emission rates to 6.00 g/min. By 1989, the average new-car CO emission at idling was 0.22 g/min. The catalytic conversion process removes CO, hydrocarbons, and nitrogen oxide; the resultant emission is a more desirable mixture of nitrogen, CO2, and water. Contemporary three-way catalytic converters eliminate 99% of CO emissions.”

So most cars don't produce enough CO to provide the levels needed for a humane death.

I think I'll go and unset the traps - I am thinking about leaving the birds int ehre for the fox to get though, I have no use for them and it might make her easier to trap when I get home with a gun!

Sedgewort Bramble · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject:

Kitsune · Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 1402 Location: Manchester

Thankyou for all your advice - and not having a go at me when I come up with stupid ideas that would cause suffering. It's hard to feel so helpless.

Dopey · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:45 am Post subject:

Being gassed with CO leads (i think) to a feeling of euphoria, so its a pleasant way to go, i have a 1958 Land Rover (no cat) so it wouldn't be a problem for me, im rubbish at maths, bit are you sure, that the amount of co coming out wouldn't kill a fox? there very small, and it would take a lot less of a % to kill them?